Yassmin Abdel-Magied - Finding Strength Through Adversity

[00:00:02] This podcast is a Roifield Brown production. Find others on iTunes.

[00:00:09] Instead of helping companies shrink, I wanted to help them grow.

[00:00:12] In Twin, we say never leave Serendipity to chance.

[00:00:15] Mobilizing people is only useful if you can channel it to influence institutions.

[00:00:19] If I want to change that person's mind, it's much more useful for me to find a way to have a one-on-one conversation with them.

[00:00:25] And then that becomes this positive loop.

[00:00:28] I wasn't even the smartest kid in my neighborhood.

[00:00:30] One death is a tragedy, 10,000 is a statistic.

[00:00:33] But I was hungry.

[00:00:36] I'm Greg Satell, author of Mapping Innovation and DeepAjeeva.

[00:00:45] Hi Roifield! Hello Gregory.

[00:00:48] It's good to see you. This is our fourth episode.

[00:00:51] And for those of you who are just joining us for the first time, this is the Changemaker Mindset podcast.

[00:00:57] And here we're building a community to make positive impacts on the world, and we hope you'll join us.

[00:01:03] Every episode, we bring you inspiring stories of real changemakers to help you adopt the mindset you need to bring about the type of change you want to see.

[00:01:13] If you have questions for us, send us an email to questions at ChangemakerMindset.net.

[00:01:22] Put that in the show notes.

[00:01:24] And I believe we have our first question that will answer at the end of this episode.

[00:01:31] Roifield, you're looking well. The bar looks good. How's it going?

[00:01:35] Pretty well so far.

[00:01:36] We've increased turnover in our first month on the previous guy by 70%, a whole 70% Gregory.

[00:01:43] You are the Lando Calrissian of bar owners. I'll have to make it there sometime.

[00:01:49] And you're not welcome in my bar, sir.

[00:01:51] What the hell's that supposed to mean?

[00:01:53] We have a certain kind of level of clientele, and I like to keep it that way.

[00:01:59] You're telling me I'm getting 86th from a bar I've never even been to?

[00:02:04] Whatever 86th means, but I think the answer is yes, you are being 86th from Temperam Brown.

[00:02:10] Man, that's cold.

[00:02:12] Anyway, it's not as bad as my friend Yasmin who's our guest today. She's gotten thrown out of an entire country.

[00:02:19] That sounds pretty rough.

[00:02:21] Yeah, actually it was. In fact, her name is now a verb to be Yasmin in Australia means to be cancelled as a woman of color.

[00:02:31] She went through an incredibly difficult experience which actually caused her.

[00:02:36] She was essentially hounded out of the country.

[00:02:39] And I think her story is so inspiring because it answers the question,

[00:02:44] what happens if you achieve your dreams and then lose it all?

[00:02:50] What's on the other side?

[00:02:52] As it turns out, can be a lot of good things.

[00:02:55] Even a handsome young up-and-comer from the streets of Philadelphia.

[00:03:03] So Yasmin, so good to see you. This time I've brought my friend Rory Field.

[00:03:08] Yasmin's friend is a very nice guy here.

[00:03:16] I actually just met him yesterday and he invited me to this new meeting.

[00:03:26] Please, Rory Field, don't embarrass me for once.

[00:03:29] I always have difficulty describing you because you have been, let's see, an engineer on an oil rig.

[00:03:40] A waste car roux pit person, YA author.

[00:03:45] My daughter absolutely loves both your You Must Be Layla books.

[00:03:50] Also a very important voice for inclusion and also increasingly an important voice for Sudan,

[00:03:59] which is something that doesn't get talked about enough.

[00:04:04] Yeah, sadly they're calling it the forgotten wall.

[00:04:07] But you grew up in Australia from cartoon and then you have this other layer on top which is religion.

[00:04:15] The fact that you're seeing not only physically as being, let's say, other.

[00:04:20] To explain that close how you reconcile these three different elements to yourself

[00:04:26] and then how that made growing up.

[00:04:29] So I was brought up by two Sudanese parents who had very solid ideas of who they were.

[00:04:36] They were Sudanese, there was no kind of question about it.

[00:04:39] And so when they moved to Australia it was never a question of who are we for them.

[00:04:43] It was in this household, we're Sudanese.

[00:04:46] Outside this household people are different but in this house we spoke Arabic, we ate Sudanese food.

[00:04:51] So I had this bubble where I understood that like in the home life was one way and then outside life was different.

[00:04:58] And Sudanese and Muslim were so interlinked for me that I didn't even think of them as separate

[00:05:03] and that comes with its own challenges within the country, not all Sudanese people are Muslim,

[00:05:07] but like the way that I grew up certainly that was the story.

[00:05:11] In the Australian context, like where I grew up in Brisbane we were like the second Sudanese family

[00:05:16] and the next one didn't move for 10 years later.

[00:05:19] And so it wasn't as if I had other Sudanese families to compare myself to.

[00:05:24] Outside the home the people that were similar to me were Muslim.

[00:05:27] So I understood my community to be the Muslim community.

[00:05:31] I wasn't part of the Sudanese community, I wasn't even part of something called the Black community

[00:05:34] because there weren't enough Africans around or Caribbean people who consider themselves Afro-Black.

[00:05:40] There were Indigenous people who consider themselves Black, but that was a very different kind of history,

[00:05:46] a very different relationship to land and so on.

[00:05:48] So Yasmin, it became clear to me reading your book of essays talking about a revolution

[00:05:55] that you had another identity as well that of somebody who always overachieved

[00:06:02] and not just in the conventional ways that a lot of kids overachieved doing quite well academically and athletically.

[00:06:09] But you also had your own non-profit that you started when you were like 14 or something

[00:06:15] and became publicly prominent as an adolescent girl.

[00:06:19] Yeah, it's quite funny. I definitely was the kind of kid who was just doing too much.

[00:06:25] I was like the secretary of the women's group at the age of like 13.

[00:06:29] I started to use that board at the age of 16.

[00:06:31] It's interesting, Greg. It's like everyone around me told me that I was being very ambitious and very audacious.

[00:06:37] But I didn't see it that way.

[00:06:40] I remember at the time thinking this feels like the obvious thing to do. Why shouldn't I do this?

[00:06:45] That we need to start an organization that is about getting people to work together.

[00:06:48] We need to collaborate more and if nobody else is going to do it, I guess I'll do it.

[00:06:52] I think that was very much the attitude that I was fortunate my parents brought us up with

[00:06:57] which was like don't wait for somebody else to solve the problem yourself or at least do something yourself.

[00:07:02] And I had that proactivity and I also think that I enjoy building things, whether that is a race car

[00:07:10] or whether that is an organization.

[00:07:13] I find something very satisfying in the process of like going from the mere idea of a thought in one's mind

[00:07:20] to like seeing it actualize in real life.

[00:07:23] There's a sort of there's an alchemy there. There's a magic that I find in livening.

[00:07:28] Your father and your mother were obviously were exceptional because even though they might have had high expectations of you.

[00:07:35] Another thing completely if you're a 14 year old daughter is setting up NGOs.

[00:07:40] So there must be some point of counsel that said are you sure you can do this?

[00:07:46] Should you even be doing this at such an early age?

[00:07:49] With all of my non-Muslim bias, I thought Muslim parents were incredibly conservative.

[00:07:54] I guess part of the risk of moving to a place like Australia was certainly for my mother, I think,

[00:08:03] was like if we're going to live here we might as well make the most of the opportunities.

[00:08:09] And I think also when I was talking about it to my mother as an idea for the first time, her question to me was

[00:08:15] That borders was the non-profit.

[00:08:17] The organization, yeah the nonprofit, yeah.

[00:08:19] I remember talking to her about it and saying something on the lines of

[00:08:22] Oh, because I really wanted to join doctors without borders, but I didn't really want to be a doctor.

[00:08:26] And I was like, I just wish I could start youth without borders.

[00:08:29] And her question to me was like, why don't you? What's stopping you?

[00:08:33] And that was their attitude.

[00:08:35] And I think that is a very liberating attitude for a kid to experience right?

[00:08:40] Not why you or you shouldn't be doing this, but why not what's stopping you?

[00:08:46] And I think that has enabled me to have dreams that are sometimes delusional, that are audacious,

[00:08:52] that I don't have the right to be having.

[00:08:54] When you became young Queenslander of the year, what happened in Queensland?

[00:08:59] Did they like mint coins with your face on it? What happened on the bank notes?

[00:09:03] To give the Queenslanders credit because Queensland is a very conservative state.

[00:09:08] I often compare it to Texas as the state in terms of its very popular feel heavy.

[00:09:12] If you're looking for politicians that are very right wing, they've probably come from Queensland.

[00:09:17] But in Brisbane, I got lucky in that I met people that really believed in me.

[00:09:22] I met people that took a chance and something that my parents did that wasn't about connections was

[00:09:28] they would always point me in the direction of opportunities.

[00:09:31] So the way that I studied these are that borders, for example, was I sound an application to attend this summit

[00:09:38] called the Asia Pacific City Summit.

[00:09:41] And it was about 100 young people from around the Asia Pacific coming together and talking about their communities

[00:09:46] and the work that they were doing in their communities.

[00:09:48] I think my mum found a link online somewhere and she sent it to me and I applied just the day before closing.

[00:09:54] And that was where I met my co-founders for Youth Without Borders.

[00:09:57] And then when it came to setting up and finding a place for meetings,

[00:10:02] I think my mum knew somebody who had seen an ad somewhere for a space in the youth centre

[00:10:08] in a place called Fortitude Valley, which is a very rundown, urban, quote unquote, urban area.

[00:10:14] So it was like we hustled in the old school way of hustling and looking for any opportunity

[00:10:18] in any community space and literally knocking on every possible door.

[00:10:24] And I would do things like email very high up people from out of the blue

[00:10:27] and be like, hi, can you be my mentor?

[00:10:29] And I remember asking somebody who said yes to this,

[00:10:33] I was like, surely you get people asking you all the time.

[00:10:36] And then I'll actually know people assume that I'm too busy that nobody asks.

[00:10:40] But since you've asked, why not?

[00:10:43] And then my first board experience came from somebody saw an article about Youth Without Borders in their local paper

[00:10:49] and she was on the board of the Queensland Museum.

[00:10:52] She was like, we need some new young blood.

[00:10:54] So she put my name forward.

[00:10:55] And strangely enough, they invited me to join the board.

[00:10:59] And then I was now surrounded by a group of people who had nesmet somebody like me.

[00:11:03] They had no idea like this little African Muslim kid,

[00:11:07] like waltzing in from school to the board meetings, like what?

[00:11:10] They just did not know what to do with me.

[00:11:12] But for some reason they responded really well and they were like,

[00:11:16] okay, great, let's give you more opportunity.

[00:11:18] So I think I benefited in some ways from being such a novelty

[00:11:22] and all these spaces that I was a part of.

[00:11:24] And I could step up to the challenge that people opened doors,

[00:11:27] but of course you have to be able to walk through it.

[00:11:29] You have to be able to pull it off.

[00:11:31] Almost everything you did in your early life,

[00:11:33] you were the only one when you became an engineer on an wheel rig.

[00:11:40] You were the only woman, the only Muslim, the only person of colour.

[00:11:45] Similarly, when you were running the race car group,

[00:11:49] maybe you can talk about that as you went from career to career,

[00:11:56] each exceptional in its own way,

[00:11:59] but also breaking new ground in some ways, some very prosaic ways.

[00:12:05] It's funny, my mother told me a couple of years ago

[00:12:09] that all of the young Sudanese girls that had grown up in Queensland after me

[00:12:16] had ended up doing engineering because they looked at me and they thought,

[00:12:20] that's what we do.

[00:12:21] That's what we Sudanese girls do when we live in Queensland.

[00:12:24] We do engineering because you see me, right?

[00:12:26] Yes, I guess that's what we do.

[00:12:28] And I think you're right, I think because I was so often the only one

[00:12:31] that also became a very comfortable thing.

[00:12:34] I remember a conversation that really like to this day sticks in my mind.

[00:12:37] One of these mentors that I'm talking about,

[00:12:39] he was like big dog lawyer at a big dog law firm

[00:12:43] and he was like, you have to decide one of these days

[00:12:47] whether you want to be the only one who looks like you

[00:12:51] or you want to be one of the many.

[00:12:53] Because those are very different experiences.

[00:12:55] If you're going to stay in Australia,

[00:12:57] the truth is you will probably always be the only one

[00:13:00] and that comes with certain privileges and certain challenges

[00:13:05] or you could move to a place like those places in Europe

[00:13:11] where you will have the kind of the luxury

[00:13:14] of being surrounded by many people that look like you

[00:13:16] but it's going to be different because you're used to be the only one

[00:13:19] and you kind of lose that.

[00:13:21] And I remember thinking like, oh I'm not sure

[00:13:24] but as I got older and as I realized that

[00:13:28] there are many different reasons why I moved to London

[00:13:30] but one of the things that I have appreciated

[00:13:33] is that I didn't want to be at the top of my game at 25

[00:13:37] and that's what had happened.

[00:13:38] I was at the top of my game at 25.

[00:13:39] I should not be at the top of my game at 25.

[00:13:43] Insha'Allah, I have so much more time, so much more to learn

[00:13:45] and so when I came to London, I was so hungry

[00:13:48] and I think that's what I wanted to be surrounded by people

[00:13:52] who knew more than me about people like me

[00:13:55] so that I could level up.

[00:13:57] I needed to level up.

[00:13:59] You have to tell the reason why

[00:14:01] you felt you had to make that move.

[00:14:03] Yeah, so the kind of long story short is that I had been

[00:14:08] as you pointed out Greg, I had been overachieving

[00:14:12] and rising that I had committed this great crime

[00:14:18] which was I had stepped out of the box

[00:14:21] that someone like me is allowed to be in.

[00:14:24] There were two incidents.

[00:14:27] The first was on a TV show

[00:14:29] with a Senator, an Australian Senator,

[00:14:33] Jackie Lambie I believe,

[00:14:35] and she pretty much ambushed you.

[00:14:38] It was like a panel show, a current affairs panel show,

[00:14:41] one of the biggest, one of the kind of agenda setting TV shows

[00:14:44] in the country and I had been on a number of times before

[00:14:46] I was quite used to it and the host said,

[00:14:49] look we're not going to talk about anything controversial

[00:14:51] don't worry it'll be a very chill show.

[00:14:52] Get on half, about halfway through the host obviously

[00:14:56] turns to the Senator.

[00:14:57] Didn't you say that you want to ban Muslim people?

[00:15:00] She was like, yeah!

[00:15:01] And then goes on a bit of a tired

[00:15:03] and I'll be honest with you, I remember so distinctly

[00:15:06] it was like mid-February

[00:15:08] and I was just tired, I was tired.

[00:15:10] I was tired of the same Islamophobic anti-immigrant rhetoric

[00:15:15] that I had been living with my whole life

[00:15:17] and it was almost this opportunity

[00:15:19] to say all the things that I had yelled at the television

[00:15:22] for years and years

[00:15:24] and I remember there were many people yell at the television

[00:15:25] for years and years.

[00:15:26] I gave her a piece of my mind, it was like

[00:15:29] I think you don't know what you're talking about.

[00:15:31] I think these sorts of things

[00:15:33] and the sort of phrase that I used

[00:15:35] that ended up getting me in the most current amount of trouble

[00:15:38] was I said to me, Islam is the most feminist religion

[00:15:41] and this is something that I believe

[00:15:43] and it's something that in my household

[00:15:45] wasn't even a radical thing to say

[00:15:47] like my mother would say to me on a regular basis

[00:15:49] like Islam is radical, it's radically feminist

[00:15:52] and like radical in the sense that

[00:15:54] not in the kind of pejorative sense

[00:15:57] that is used by governments around the world

[00:15:59] but it is wonderful in the kind of rights

[00:16:03] in the way that it treated women

[00:16:04] and its kind of approach to gender

[00:16:05] and all these sorts of things

[00:16:06] like that was how I understood my faith

[00:16:08] so what I was saying, I did not even consider it

[00:16:11] to be controversial

[00:16:12] and the irony of my life often is

[00:16:14] the thing that I think is not controversial

[00:16:15] is the thing that gets me into the most amount of trouble.

[00:16:18] So, in the way you've written about it

[00:16:21] and the way we've just asked it before

[00:16:22] it seems to me that you saw it

[00:16:25] as almost as a betrayal

[00:16:28] that you had done your part.

[00:16:31] Oh yeah, the clip went viral

[00:16:33] and the response was like

[00:16:37] immediate, like I think it was the beginning of the fall from grace

[00:16:40] right, I was destroyed in

[00:16:42] but I was on the front pages for ages

[00:16:44] and then there was another incident based off of Facebook post

[00:16:46] which the details don't really matter

[00:16:48] what matters is that I went from being somebody

[00:16:52] that had been supported

[00:16:53] and all of the things about me

[00:16:55] that I thought were important

[00:16:57] and that people value

[00:16:58] then became the very thing that they turned around

[00:17:00] and beat me up with in the papers

[00:17:03] on the radio on television.

[00:17:06] Yeah, getting Yasmine

[00:17:07] Yeah, getting it was turned

[00:17:09] in is an academically recognized term

[00:17:11] for what happens in Australia

[00:17:13] when a woman of color steps out of line

[00:17:15] and to your point

[00:17:17] I was 25 when I was on that panel show

[00:17:21] my world like shattered

[00:17:22] my understanding of how the world worked

[00:17:25] shattered because up until that point

[00:17:26] I believed I just had to like

[00:17:28] work hard, prove myself, demonstrate

[00:17:31] all of that overachieving was also about

[00:17:33] demonstrating my value to the society that I was in

[00:17:35] look how good a migrant I am

[00:17:37] look how good a Muslim I am

[00:17:39] I was the good Muslim girl

[00:17:40] I was the example that people pointed to

[00:17:42] and it was a quote from a

[00:17:44] I was supposed to be enough

[00:17:46] I think a lot of people

[00:17:48] who strive to achieve

[00:17:50] you're under the assumption

[00:17:52] that if you're successful you'll be safe

[00:17:54] Yeah, and I was not

[00:17:57] and it was the most popular way to discover

[00:17:59] Exactly, and I think at that point

[00:18:01] when I realized

[00:18:02] that there was no way to actually win

[00:18:05] this battle because there was always

[00:18:07] like it was set up against me

[00:18:09] at that point I was like

[00:18:11] I need to divest

[00:18:12] I was like and the only way that I could

[00:18:14] that I felt like I had

[00:18:16] any agency was

[00:18:17] to take myself out

[00:18:19] so it was at that point that I decided to move to London

[00:18:22] two things

[00:18:24] I'm grateful that my experience

[00:18:26] has a life of its own

[00:18:28] in that it would have been

[00:18:30] awful to experience all of that

[00:18:32] and then have it be forgotten

[00:18:33] right there's also a second death

[00:18:35] in that kind of being forgotten for it to

[00:18:37] at least have a place

[00:18:39] in Australia's story

[00:18:41] is it's a kind of

[00:18:43] weird honor in itself

[00:18:44] but also I didn't think

[00:18:47] I could have learnt what I learnt

[00:18:49] had it not been

[00:18:51] like I found a way to

[00:18:53] pick myself up off the ground

[00:18:55] and put myself back together

[00:18:57] and the strength that I got

[00:18:59] from that that nobody gave me

[00:19:00] but then I got from that and the clarity

[00:19:03] and the courage that I now

[00:19:05] have from having gone through such an experience

[00:19:07] I'm not sure I would have learnt that

[00:19:09] any other way and I would never

[00:19:11] wish this experience on my worst enemy

[00:19:13] but I also am like you guys don't know what

[00:19:15] you created right

[00:19:17] so now you're talking about when we met

[00:19:19] yeah

[00:19:23] so

[00:19:24] wait a minute Frank

[00:19:26] this was the cathartic

[00:19:29] warm embrace of coming

[00:19:31] to England

[00:19:33] if I can set

[00:19:35] the scene Yasmin and I

[00:19:37] were headlining

[00:19:38] at the same technology conference

[00:19:40] in southern Norway

[00:19:43] I had flown over to

[00:19:45] London from Philadelphia

[00:19:47] by the time I got there

[00:19:49] jet lagged

[00:19:51] hungover I'm displaying

[00:19:53] Yasmin I think you might have

[00:19:55] agreed what our friend

[00:19:57] Wefield calls my

[00:19:59] somewhat irascible nature

[00:20:03] very great

[00:20:04] I was a little pissed

[00:20:06] and then

[00:20:07] I get in this van

[00:20:09] for another three hours

[00:20:12] from Oslo

[00:20:13] to this city where we're

[00:20:16] going to be speaking

[00:20:16] and I'm sitting across

[00:20:19] from this woman with the

[00:20:21] headscarf and thank him

[00:20:23] it's almost like one of those

[00:20:25] hangover movies like you

[00:20:26] you wake up and you're across

[00:20:29] from a nun or something

[00:20:30] and I was thinking

[00:20:33] this is going to be a

[00:20:35] fast-fading three hour drive

[00:20:37] with the headache and everything else

[00:20:38] and then I

[00:20:41] just fell in love almost

[00:20:43] instant

[00:20:45] you're too kind

[00:20:47] I was just so amused I remember

[00:20:49] you sitting down across from me

[00:20:50] and looking at your facial expression

[00:20:52] and thinking this guy is shook

[00:20:55] he doesn't know whether to laugh

[00:20:57] or cry

[00:21:00] but I mean you were also fascinating

[00:21:02] because you had recently come from Ukraine

[00:21:05] if I remember correctly

[00:21:06] I think we pretty much fell into

[00:21:09] conversations straight away and there are some

[00:21:10] conversations where you really have to work

[00:21:12] and you're doing a lot of the carrying

[00:21:13] and there's some where you're just like

[00:21:15] we could chat for hours

[00:21:18] But this did seem

[00:21:21] like a turning point for you

[00:21:22] because we've joked about it

[00:21:25] since then that your life changed when you met me

[00:21:27] but the night before

[00:21:29] your boyfriend had proposed

[00:21:30] and you had accepted

[00:21:32] Oh yeah, God I'd forgotten

[00:21:35] Oh my God

[00:21:37] Good memory. You're still married so I

[00:21:39] Yes

[00:21:41] And then I remember

[00:21:42] you of course stole the show

[00:21:44] at the end of the conference

[00:21:46] there was a reception and a dinner afterwards

[00:21:49] and you were going to go back to the hotel

[00:21:51] and I said

[00:21:53] should we really go?

[00:21:54] and then you did and you were happy

[00:21:56] and I remember when we were driving

[00:21:57] back on the three hour ride the other way

[00:22:01] the next morning

[00:22:02] you told me that was the first time

[00:22:04] you let yourself do that

[00:22:06] My entire life had fallen apart in Australia

[00:22:08] I had gone from being at the top of the world

[00:22:11] to like I would get regular death threats

[00:22:13] at that point in my life

[00:22:15] I remember I had gone on holiday

[00:22:17] a few months earlier

[00:22:18] to a random tiny village in Croatia

[00:22:20] and then a woman approached me

[00:22:22] and said are you Yasmin Abdul Majeed

[00:22:24] in an Australian accent

[00:22:25] and I'm on this tiny beach in Croatia

[00:22:28] and an Australian person had like found me

[00:22:30] and I instantly all my guards are up

[00:22:32] and I'm like I don't know if this person is friend or phone

[00:22:34] I don't know what they want from me

[00:22:36] because it had gone both ways

[00:22:38] people had approached me in the street to yell at me

[00:22:40] and berate me

[00:22:41] and people had approached me because they liked what I did

[00:22:44] whatever

[00:22:44] but so many social interactions

[00:22:47] were full of like tension

[00:22:49] and it meant my God was always up

[00:22:51] Greg's encouragement

[00:22:53] to like to try have a casual

[00:22:55] night in Kungsberg

[00:22:57] on a very wintery cold

[00:22:59] November evening

[00:23:01] was the beginning I think of a shift

[00:23:03] and then we went into pandemic

[00:23:05] then we went into lockdown so it's been an interesting ride

[00:23:09] And you had my somewhat irascible

[00:23:11] nature to back

[00:23:13] Exactly

[00:23:14] I don't know

[00:23:15] probably that irascible nature

[00:23:17] is what allowed you to push past

[00:23:21] my

[00:23:22] very high walls

[00:23:23] because I'm sure like those walls were there

[00:23:26] and my kind of stushy

[00:23:27] the word that is used in London is like my stush way of being

[00:23:30] my kind of mess with me

[00:23:32] face and vibe at times

[00:23:34] especially during that time which was about protection

[00:23:36] and you're just like

[00:23:38] let me not pay attention to that

[00:23:39] let me just tell you what I reckon

[00:23:41] just before we start

[00:23:43] to wrap this up

[00:23:44] what does your

[00:23:47] experience do you think

[00:23:48] tell us about

[00:23:50] social media being cancelled

[00:23:53] we have a right

[00:23:55] to be forgotten and forgiven

[00:23:57] there needs to be grace in society

[00:23:59] and I think one of the big

[00:24:01] transitions we're going through at the moment

[00:24:03] is the fact that everything we've ever said

[00:24:05] and done

[00:24:06] is now immortalised in a way it never has been in

[00:24:09] the human world

[00:24:09] wrap this up into a nice bow

[00:24:12] what is your experience

[00:24:15] about

[00:24:16] mugging media and more as

[00:24:19] I think

[00:24:20] I think a couple of different things

[00:24:22] I think one

[00:24:23] my experience and the experience

[00:24:26] of the way the dynamics play out online

[00:24:28] are a reflection of pre-existing power structures

[00:24:31] I think we like to think that they change

[00:24:33] those power structures but I think

[00:24:35] when the rubber hits the road

[00:24:37] when it really matters

[00:24:39] the same kinds of

[00:24:40] people with the same positions in society

[00:24:43] like if you're David Cameron

[00:24:45] or if you're Boris Johnson

[00:24:46] or if you're a person with

[00:24:49] privileged in society structural privileged

[00:24:51] in society

[00:24:52] you will be fine

[00:24:54] you might be shamed

[00:24:55] you might feel really sad

[00:24:57] and I'm not saying that doesn't have an impact

[00:25:00] but I'm saying your material position in the world

[00:25:03] will not be affected

[00:25:03] so the implications

[00:25:05] of how social media operates

[00:25:07] I think just reflect the power structures

[00:25:09] that we have in society

[00:25:10] however, when people talk about

[00:25:13] cancel culture and you know

[00:25:14] none of those people who were big on freedom of speech

[00:25:18] came and supported me

[00:25:19] it's a complete reflection of ideology

[00:25:21] like the same

[00:25:23] people who will be like we can't say anything

[00:25:25] these days with the same people that will shut her up

[00:25:28] and get her out of this country

[00:25:29] it really revealed

[00:25:31] people's true agendas

[00:25:32] and that's why I think it's quite often a reflection of existing

[00:25:35] existing dynamics

[00:25:36] I personally

[00:25:39] never get involved

[00:25:41] in a pylon online

[00:25:43] because having been at the heart of one

[00:25:45] I tend to think

[00:25:47] what value

[00:25:48] is my contribution going to have

[00:25:51] if I want to change that person's mind

[00:25:53] it's much more useful for me to find a way

[00:25:55] to have a one-on-one conversation with them

[00:25:57] than it is to

[00:25:58] be in the comments

[00:26:00] like trying to

[00:26:01] tear someone down

[00:26:03] I think there's very little value in going to people personally

[00:26:06] like ad hominem attacks

[00:26:07] I think are just graceless

[00:26:09] and not very useful

[00:26:10] and I do think that we should have grace

[00:26:14] but

[00:26:14] that doesn't mean that we don't have accountability

[00:26:17] but I do want to go back to the beginning

[00:26:19] just over the course of

[00:26:21] knowing you

[00:26:22] and benefiting greatly from knowing you

[00:26:25] and having not known you obviously as a child

[00:26:29] but it did seem

[00:26:31] that something changed

[00:26:33] around the time that we

[00:26:35] met because

[00:26:37] you've always been a change maker

[00:26:39] you've always had

[00:26:40] a change maker mindset

[00:26:42] for a better term

[00:26:44] but it seems to me in your younger days

[00:26:47] it was much more

[00:26:49] outwardly achievement

[00:26:51] of it

[00:26:52] one of the things I've learned

[00:26:54] from studying change makers

[00:26:56] whether those are

[00:26:57] famous people like Gandhi or King

[00:26:59] or Mandela or whoever

[00:27:01] we tend to think that

[00:27:04] they always had the idea

[00:27:06] which they didn't

[00:27:07] they all had some

[00:27:09] terrible mistake

[00:27:11] along the way

[00:27:12] Gandhi had his MLA in miscalculation

[00:27:15] Mandela had charged

[00:27:17] they all had them

[00:27:19] whether they were scientists

[00:27:21] or politicians or whatever

[00:27:23] and you certainly

[00:27:25] had yours

[00:27:26] and when you study it deeply

[00:27:27] you see it differently than most people do

[00:27:31] most people think that you

[00:27:32] had the idea from the beginning

[00:27:35] and then you keep pushing

[00:27:37] towards that idea

[00:27:38] but my impression

[00:27:40] of anybody who achieves anything

[00:27:42] is that there was some inflection point

[00:27:45] along the way

[00:27:47] and you definitely

[00:27:48] seem to have had yours

[00:27:50] and it seems to be

[00:27:52] much more inter-directed

[00:27:54] whether that is

[00:27:56] working with

[00:27:58] global organizations

[00:28:00] to be more inclusive

[00:28:02] to be able to harness talent

[00:28:04] that they otherwise couldn't

[00:28:06] or whether it is

[00:28:08] to weave together

[00:28:10] global networks to make an impact

[00:28:12] on Sudan

[00:28:15] it does seem to me

[00:28:17] something has changed

[00:28:19] and it is

[00:28:20] something inter-directed

[00:28:22] that is pushing you

[00:28:24] somewhere

[00:28:25] maybe you can finish out

[00:28:28] on where that is going

[00:28:30] I always love hearing your reflections

[00:28:33] great because I think

[00:28:34] you are able to put things in a context

[00:28:37] and offer a new insight

[00:28:38] which I always find

[00:28:39] really rewarding

[00:28:42] I think you are right

[00:28:43] if you look at pre and post

[00:28:45] 2017 for me I had a very public

[00:28:47] facing position

[00:28:49] when I was younger

[00:28:50] I was very happy to be the person on the television

[00:28:53] put myself forward

[00:28:54] I actually thought that was a key part of how to create change

[00:28:58] that was part of my theory of change

[00:29:00] my theory of change

[00:29:01] as a young person was

[00:29:02] if people see me

[00:29:04] and if they see that I am good

[00:29:07] and not threatening and adding value

[00:29:09] then that will trickle down

[00:29:10] that will change things for people after me

[00:29:13] the lesson that I learnt

[00:29:14] that is not the case

[00:29:15] certainly it is much more difficult for that to be the case

[00:29:18] if you are

[00:29:20] yes black, yes not a black, also a woman

[00:29:22] I think the gendered aspect of this

[00:29:24] and also young like all of those things

[00:29:26] meant that it was and to your point

[00:29:28] without the kind of deep networks

[00:29:30] in a society a migrant

[00:29:32] and so I shifted

[00:29:33] when I moved to the UK

[00:29:34] I had loads of people

[00:29:37] who wanted me to be on the television shows

[00:29:39] and wanted me to do all this public facing stuff

[00:29:41] and I said in order to all of them

[00:29:42] because I was like

[00:29:45] what does it mean to build power

[00:29:48] outside of the gaze

[00:29:49] of the public

[00:29:50] what does it mean for me to try to create change

[00:29:53] I suppose also maybe the thing that I learnt

[00:29:55] was the people that were pulling the strings

[00:29:57] were not people whose names I knew from television

[00:29:59] were not people whose names are on the front

[00:30:01] of the paper

[00:30:02] they were all editors

[00:30:03] decision makers, people in board rooms etc

[00:30:05] and they were making enormous changes

[00:30:08] but they were completely invisible

[00:30:09] or they were invisible to me

[00:30:11] and it changed my understanding of

[00:30:13] where power is

[00:30:15] and also it offered me an alternative

[00:30:17] way to create change

[00:30:19] if I could access the people with power

[00:30:22] if I could change those minds

[00:30:24] or intervene

[00:30:26] not in public view because the dynamics

[00:30:28] in the public view are very different

[00:30:29] and they're about optics more than they are

[00:30:31] about actual change

[00:30:33] maybe I could be more effective

[00:30:35] I think it became a question

[00:30:36] and this might also change in the future

[00:30:38] because I don't know if I said this to you at the time Greg

[00:30:41] but I was like

[00:30:42] I'm willing to cop it

[00:30:44] if it's a cause I care about

[00:30:45] if I have to

[00:30:49] cop the amount of

[00:30:51] public hatred that I did

[00:30:52] but it was because I was representing

[00:30:54] an organisation or I was doing it for a specific

[00:30:57] objective

[00:30:58] I will do that

[00:30:59] but just for the sake of it

[00:31:01] no that doesn't seem as effective anymore

[00:31:05] the idea of representing

[00:31:06] for the sake of representing

[00:31:07] doesn't hold the same weight for me that it once did

[00:31:10] so yeah I think my theory of change

[00:31:13] has changed

[00:31:13] and how something my mother said to me that year

[00:31:17] she was like Wemosom

[00:31:18] she was always preparing you for something

[00:31:20] I was like what on earth am I being prepared for

[00:31:23] I didn't know and I still don't know

[00:31:25] but I think that's an interesting

[00:31:27] framework to it

[00:31:29] to learn something that's significant at that age

[00:31:32] and to then have

[00:31:34] the path be so

[00:31:36] you know it was such a sharp turn in my path

[00:31:39] I'm so curious

[00:31:40] often what the future holds

[00:31:43] yeah mobilising people is only useful

[00:31:45] if you can channel it to influence institutions

[00:31:48] and I think that's where

[00:31:51] a lot of

[00:31:52] would-be activists or

[00:31:54] unsuccessful activists

[00:31:56] remain unsuccessful because

[00:31:58] the mobilisation

[00:32:00] can be a drug it feels good

[00:32:02] yeah

[00:32:02] but unless you're actually

[00:32:06] focusing on

[00:32:08] influencing institutions

[00:32:10] one of the things I'm always saying

[00:32:12] in my talks and in my work with organizations

[00:32:14] those are the two questions you need to ask

[00:32:17] of each and every action you take

[00:32:19] who are you mobilising

[00:32:20] and to influence what

[00:32:24] just bars

[00:32:24] just wisdom Greg I love it

[00:32:27] but they're great questions

[00:32:28] and the question that I remember you said this to me

[00:32:30] in that car ride

[00:32:31] question of how do you survive victory

[00:32:33] so then as an example of not doing that

[00:32:36] of not surviving victory and I think it's a question

[00:32:38] I ask all the time how do we survive victory

[00:32:40] what about the day after

[00:32:42] and I think that's a question we still have to ask ourselves

[00:32:45] we all do

[00:32:47] all the time

[00:32:48] but I feel Yasmin

[00:32:49] you and me together we have a

[00:32:52] better chance than a part

[00:32:55] thank you sir

[00:32:56] thank you

[00:32:58] thank you so much for joining us

[00:33:00] and putting up with my

[00:33:01] somewhat irascible nature

[00:33:03] and we feel somewhat

[00:33:06] cultured and a cultured

[00:33:08] cultured was the word I was

[00:33:10] looking for of course

[00:33:11] thank you

[00:33:12] thank you brother

[00:33:14] thank you

[00:33:14] listen it's been lovely at Beaconson having you on the show

[00:33:20] ciao

[00:33:24] what did I tell you Roy Field

[00:33:26] Yasmin is pretty awesome

[00:33:28] she is indeed how you can make

[00:33:30] an impact through activism

[00:33:32] and I just found

[00:33:34] her origin story

[00:33:35] incredibly compelling

[00:33:37] and I think one of the things she said

[00:33:39] we can both I think identify with

[00:33:42] about how your identity is both a privilege

[00:33:46] and also

[00:33:47] a liability and I think we've both seen that

[00:33:50] especially when I live the overseas

[00:33:52] but this idea

[00:33:54] that you can be

[00:33:56] one of the many or

[00:33:58] one of the few and there's advantages

[00:34:00] and disadvantages

[00:34:02] to both I thought that was

[00:34:03] really insightful and she has been

[00:34:06] a real master

[00:34:08] at navigating it

[00:34:10] and the whole onion layer

[00:34:12] which is our identity

[00:34:13] she's Sudanese, she's Muslim, she's a woman

[00:34:16] she's black, she's Australian

[00:34:18] was really fascinating

[00:34:19] in how in different aspects of her life

[00:34:22] different bits by identity

[00:34:24] there has been a plus or a minus

[00:34:26] yeah and what I find so inspiring about Yasmin

[00:34:29] is we all

[00:34:31] fantasize about what happens

[00:34:34] if we

[00:34:36] if we achieve our dreams

[00:34:37] and we

[00:34:39] we seldom ask

[00:34:41] what happens after we lose it all

[00:34:43] and that's what I find

[00:34:45] most inspiring about Yasmin's

[00:34:48] story is that there really

[00:34:50] is something

[00:34:51] on the other side

[00:34:53] and that we think that if we lose it all

[00:34:56] that it's over

[00:34:57] but often it can be something

[00:34:59] new and better

[00:35:01] and a real rebirth

[00:35:02] and she who had that happen

[00:35:05] to her at such a young age

[00:35:07] she was only 25

[00:35:08] now she's in her early 30s

[00:35:11] and she's making a new life

[00:35:13] and probably making more of an impact

[00:35:15] than she ever had

[00:35:17] yeah and as you collude

[00:35:19] just making that impact

[00:35:21] so young

[00:35:22] who sets up a non-profit at the age of 16

[00:35:25] just that

[00:35:27] drive that she attributed to her parents

[00:35:30] it's just

[00:35:31] phenomenal in many ways

[00:35:33] she feels like a bit of a superwoman

[00:35:34] and I think more now

[00:35:37] because

[00:35:38] this is something Dostoevsky wrote about

[00:35:41] we all use our achievements

[00:35:43] to make us feel safe

[00:35:45] we feel that if we get

[00:35:47] the right job, if we make enough money

[00:35:49] if we get the right level

[00:35:51] of fame

[00:35:53] or whatever

[00:35:55] there's some place at which

[00:35:57] will be safe and I think what she learned

[00:35:59] at a very young age

[00:36:00] is

[00:36:01] your external achievements will never make you safe

[00:36:04] you have to

[00:36:06] make yourself feel safe

[00:36:08] by being your authentic self

[00:36:10] and Yasmin does that with such grace

[00:36:13] which is

[00:36:14] I just find

[00:36:16] incredibly inspiring

[00:36:17] and one of the reasons I love to be around her

[00:36:20] but I have heard that

[00:36:21] we have our very first question

[00:36:24] we do

[00:36:30] how can I ever get things to change

[00:36:32] Lindsay from Chicago

[00:36:34] that's such an important

[00:36:36] question Lindsay and it's one

[00:36:38] I get wherever I go in the world

[00:36:40] everybody has ideas for

[00:36:42] change and they

[00:36:44] feel others aren't going

[00:36:46] aren't listening to them and it's true

[00:36:48] people don't want to hear

[00:36:50] your ideas because they have their own

[00:36:52] ideas that they're

[00:36:54] focused on

[00:36:56] what you want to do is identify

[00:36:58] a meaningful problem

[00:36:59] that people want solved

[00:37:02] if you can find

[00:37:03] a problem

[00:37:04] that is actually

[00:37:07] meaningful to someone

[00:37:09] that's a great way to get their attention

[00:37:11] and if you can actually solve that problem

[00:37:14] for them

[00:37:14] that is your best bet

[00:37:17] to actually make an impact

[00:37:20] so good luck Lindsay

[00:37:22] don't worry about trying

[00:37:23] to come up with some great idea

[00:37:25] go out and find a problem

[00:37:27] that people care about

[00:37:29] so that wraps up our

[00:37:31] fourth episode

[00:37:33] Royfield

[00:37:33] looking forward to our next one

[00:37:36] I'm sure it's going to be one close to your heart

[00:37:38] it is with a

[00:37:40] professional rugby player

[00:37:42] who went on to become

[00:37:44] an innovation

[00:37:45] Google

[00:37:55] enjoy today's episode

[00:37:56] don't forget to subscribe

[00:37:57] and follow us on social media

[00:38:00] to stay updated on all the latest episodes

[00:38:02] your support helps us bring

[00:38:05] more insightful conversations to the table

[00:38:06] and don't miss out on our next episode

[00:38:09] where we'll be chatting with Aidan McCullen

[00:38:11] ex-international rugby player

[00:38:13] author and host of the innovation show

[00:38:16] they take your coconut

[00:38:17] and they hollow out just a little tiny hole

[00:38:19] just wide enough for the monkey to squeeze their hand in

[00:38:22] and they'd fill it with fruit

[00:38:24] the monkeys came along

[00:38:25] smelling the fruit

[00:38:26] squeezed their hand in to grab the fruit

[00:38:29] and then they create a fist

[00:38:30] and once they create the fist

[00:38:32] their hand is too big to take out of that hole once again

[00:38:35] so they're stuck

[00:38:37] and even when they see the captors

[00:38:39] coming out of hiding

[00:38:41] and going to take them away

[00:38:43] they cling to the fruit

[00:38:45] and I always think of that as this metaphor

[00:38:47] for what happens to organizations that cling

[00:38:50] to their identity too long

[00:38:51] so we will see you again in two weeks time

[00:38:54] until then, keep making change happen